[00:00:05] Nick: With this kind of shift in the footwear industry, we've gotten to the point also with technology where we have all these synthetic materials so they can really, really tuck up some of the parts of the shoes and name things a certain way. It sounds really cool.
[00:00:30] PODCAST INTRO: Welcome to “In The RACK” podcast, where we provide you with the practical framework for breaking PRs in all facets of health and wellness. We are just a couple of bros giving you the simple house in a world of complex wants. No filters, no scripts, no rules, just straight talk, talk tune. Now, let's get into the rack with your hosts, Dr. Chad and Dr. Nick.
[00:00:55] Chad: Alright, everyone. Welcome to “In The RACK” podcast “Episode 03”. This is good one. This is one that, Nick, and I have been waiting for since the beginning. I know we kind of talked about it last time in terms of how we waited till “Episode 03” to talk about this. But I think it's worth the wait. So just to kind of go over it. Again, I'm your host, Chad, and my co-host is Nick. And just to kind of talk a little bit more about, Nick, and his journey with feet. We're going to call this episode foot fetish just because we both tend to have a little bit of a foot fetish, Nick a little bit more than myself. But Nick, recently, in the last year had completed a program called “The Foot Nerd” program through the “Foot Collective”, if you are not sure what “Foot Collective” is, they have Instagram, their Instagram is FootCollective, check them out. They do a lot of great content on feet. And Nick did this program and he's a legit foot nerd now. He's got the diploma to prove it. And it's want you to talk a little bit about that, Nick, and just let us know what was involved with the foot nerd program and what you got out of it, kind of bring us through that.
[00:02:05] Nick: So basically, “The Foot Nerd” program, it's more than just feet, it's really a program designed to help you really regain traction on your individual health journey. And in doing so, once you regain traction on your own journey, you are in a better position to help others on their own health journey. So as physical therapists, strength coaches, that's what we're doing. The foot nerd program, there's everything from PTs to physical education teachers, everything in between anything, you could think of people join this program. And it's really, like I said, a way for people to regain that momentum with their health process day in day out. Because realistically, when you're talking about health, you don't necessarily achieve optimal health, you're just striving for it each and every day. Because if I were to be able to get to the finish line, I have to keep that up. So the finish line just keeps moving with me throughout life. So I have to live it day in day out. And the foot nerd program, they kind of call it the foot nerd program, because the feet being the foundation of the body. That's where it's a good place to start. Because in our modern world, in modern society, everyone's weren't shoes. And we're constantly doing something throughout the lifespan wearing these cushioned shoes that can have negative impacts on your feet over time. So we've developed this misrepresentation of the feet. In our society, it's really skewed where we think of our feet as weak and frail. And at the end of the day, that's just not the case, our feet should be strong and resilient and they are, we just have to train them accordingly. So the foot nerd program is all about starting with the feet regain that that healthy relationship with your feet. So you can blossom that into the whole health process and that kind of trickles into nutrition, sleep habits, movement overall, and all that kind of stuff. So that's really the big emphasis of the foot nerd program.
[00:04:10] Chad: And it seems like they're kind of going more for, like a total wellness approach to nowadays it doesn't even seem like they're harping on feet as much, even though they still do a lot of that but seems like they're hitting a lot of the nutrition and the sleep and how everything's just interconnected and how it all kind of just works together.
[00:04:27] Nick: So they have five big pillars, when they talk about the health process. And feed are a huge part of the body and the movement part of things but that will also help you kind of dive into like you said, the nutrition, the sleep, your mind kind of how you think about not just yourself but how you think about the world around you the environment around you. And then the last pillar would be community so having that that community, whether it's your family, your friends, all that kind of stuff, what your co-workers do. And having healthy relationships with all those people can be super, super impactful on your health, it's actually necessary for your health because we've been in Small bands of communities, since our beginning. So we need it for optimal health, and we need to live it each and every day and be part of that throughout our lifespan.
[00:05:19] Chad: For sure. And if you're a patient or a client, and you've come to ProForm, you know how passionate we are about feet. So, I guess let's talk a little bit about how you got into feet, Nick. I know that you went through the whole foot nerd program, but what was your interest in feet because not everybody likes feet, they all think it's gross. So what's your take on that?
[00:05:40] Nick: My interests really started with my own injuries. So I was a basketball player, play basketball in college. And throughout even from childhood, I had foot issues. When I was young, I had a ton of heel pain. I had dealt with what's called sesamoiditis. So basically just pain at the ball your foot. So I would have battled that on and off, would go to the practice, get orthotics, go back on my feet grew get more orthotics. Like middle school, I started getting my first ankle sprain. And I was just sprained my ankles all the time. So I just started to deal with it. And once I was doing my playing career, I just kind of chalked it up to having bad feet. And it's just the hand that was dealt type of thing. And I started to research it more, I found the foot collective, and I saw the stuff they were doing. And I was like, “Man, maybe it doesn't have to be this way”. So one big thing the foot Collective is walking out of balance beam. So essentially, it's just like PVC pipe. And that's what I did. I went to Home Depot got PVC pipe, and I started to walk in on it every day, couple minutes each day. And then I started doing just some simple foot exercises, rolling the foot out on a lacrosse ball, couple toe dissociation exercises, things like that. And within weeks, I started to notice, man, this is this feels so different. I would be walking out on uneven terrain, and where normally my feet would mind because we just roll naturally. It wasn't happening anymore. Or if it were about to happen, my body would catch itself. I was like, “Wow, it's never been this way this is crazy different”. So I kept up with it, I kept up with it. And it started carrying over into other things, not just with movement, like my other lifts, my deadlift, my squat that all went up. But also I started to get more kind of serious. And on track with nutrition, I started to develop a better sleep schedule, and it all kind of started with the feet. So within that foot nerd program where feet are kind of the backbone of the foundation, it truly happened for me, I saw it happen. So I started to take it to the clinic. And obviously people would come in with foot issues. When you're treating them. You're going to dive into the feet. But then I started to dive in the feet with everybody and I've gotten to the point where I discuss feet with people with coming with neck pain, shoulders, wrists, hands, I get in the field with everybody, because it's that important. So I really started to see it first with myself and then just started experimenting with patients and clients and it was becoming super impactful. So now it's just a huge kind of emphasis of our model here the way we treat, the way we train we train most people barefoot is a huge thing. All my training clients do they start out on a balance beam on the PVC pipe? We got metal ones, we've upgraded a little bit we got the metal ones now. But if we started out with just some plastic PVC pipe and that's part of the warm up for everybody for me.
[00:08:37] Chad: And even before you got into all that my first experience with barefoot shoes started about probably two or three years ago when I was going through this 40 week mentorship to the Gray Institute. And I remember looking at this guy, this guy's name was Mahir and if Mahir you listen to this year, you inspired me because I looked at your feet man and the widest fucking feet I've ever seen. And I was like, “Dude, what is up with your feet?” He's like, “Oh man, we're from Africa”. He's like, “We don't even wear shoes in Africa”. He's like, “I only have to wear shoes here because I have to”. He's like, “Otherwise I don't wear shoes”. And I'm like, “Oh man that is crazy”. So he was the one that kind of first turned me on to the whole barefoot and natural footwear. And he got me into the whole barefoot, and we'll kind of talk about that a little bit. But talking about the importance of wider toe boxes, and zero drops and all this other stuff. But I looked at him like that doesn't make a lot of sense. And ever since then, I've been rocking the natural footwear as much as I can on my feet feel awesome. So let's kind of get a little bit more into the modern footwear. And let's kind of talk a little bit about how there's like this misrepresentation or how the societal representation of our feet is skewed. Like, if I'm not wearing a shoe with a Nike swoosh symbol on it, then it's gonna be garbage. Or, if I don't wear my Air Jordan’s, it's gonna be garbage. So let's talk a little bit about that. And see how that could be like impacting our feet, just because we want to look good?
[00:10:07] Nick: And that's a huge thing is the looking good. So the shoe manufacturers, I don't want to say that they don't care about you. But the one thing they do care about, their priority is sales. So they care about you buying the shoe, and you buying the shoe it's gonna come down to does it look good so aesthetics? And does it feel good when you first try it on. So the feel good first trying it on is huge, because that is really the underlying reason why a lot of these companies have added the cushion. The cushion has been progressively increasing on the shoes for the last couple of decades. And it's really getting to a point where it's starting to be really negative. At first, your body could kind of get around it adapt. But now it's getting to the point where it's so much that it's wreaking havoc not just on your feet, but up the chain, so ankles, knees, hips back, everything's changing, even the way we breathe, you can make a case for that. But with this kind of shift in the footwear industry, we've gotten to the point also with technology, where we have all these synthetic materials, so they can really, really kind of tuck up some of the parts of the issues and name things a certain way, it sounds really cool. Sounds like it's gonna fix stuff. And that's just not the case. Because the reality of it is your feet have 26 bones, 33 joints and 100 plus muscles tendons, ligaments, for a reason, the foot evolved in that way to be resilient and adaptable, it could create a rigid lever to push off or it can kind of flatten down and be a mobile shock absorber. A shoe even if we have put it in there, it can't go back and forth between those two things, it's probably one or the other. And even then, it can't operate in the in the really intricate way that the foot can operate. So that's kind of the overarching theme of how shoes can be it's very myopic, the view on footwear, and the foot. But, Chad, already kind of mentioned some of the things that the heel toe drop, we have this desire to put all this cushion at the heel more so than the toe. So what that does is it elevates the heel relative to the toe. So now you're on a downward slope the whole time. So if you're in shoes 10, 12 hours a day, your brain just thinks you're downhill all day. So if I'm downhill, my center of mass is kind of dumped forward, my body is leaning forward, it has to offset that some way. So the way it often offsets it is if the heels lifted, it's got a jet the knees slightly forward. So now the ankles slightly forward as well, the hips have to shoot back just a tad and then the low back has to arch. And then that flares, the front of the ribcage, which again, like I said, with breathing, could theoretically impact your breathing, and there's so many nuances to it, it's not that simple. That's a very simplistic view of it. But those are kind of the subtle changes. And if that happens for a short period of time, it's fine. Your body can absolutely deal with that. But if you're doing it for 8, 10, 12 hours a day, you can see how that can become problematic. The other thing that's huge with the shoes is the toe box when your foot interact with the ground, your foot has to absorb the force from the ground. And the way it starts that force absorbing process is by spreading out splashing on the ground. Most shoes are way too narrow at the tip of the toes. So they actually squish the toes and your toes can't spread and splay, so we can't initiate that force absorption process. So the other joints up the chain, knees, and hips back have to take the brunt of the force because my foot aren't really muting it at the beginning. So really trying to get shoes that are flatter ideally. So we can talk more about we're going to the next episode, we're going to talk more about the transition process. But in terms of what we look for in shoes, first two things are flat. So zero, ideally zero drops are the heels and the toes are on the same platform. And then a wide toe box of those toes can splay out inside.
[00:14:08] Chad: You could really dive down a rabbit hole in terms of talking about evolution. And why do we have modern footwear, but Nick was saying the environment has kind of made it necessary. Just to give you an example, I was away for the 4th of July, just last weekend, and one of my cousins and one of his friends, they were doing a road race and they decided to do the road race without shoes on. And it was on pavement, remind you. And my other cousin comes up and I said “Why are they not having shoes on?” She goes, “Well, they know that you like barefoot running so they thought it was going to be the best thing”. I'm like, “What, that's the craziest thing I've ever heard”. So, of course they lost the race. And I'm like, “Dude, you guys lost the race because you don't have shoes on”. We're not running on dirt. We're running on pavement now. So it kind of has made it necessary in terms of the environment that we're living in and that's just kind of like what it is? But for any of you guys that have come kid’s, it's kind of funny to watch your kids start walking around and using all these little muscles in their ankles and feet and then all of a sudden we put them in shoes. And it's the body's becoming adapted at like age now to the shoes. And it's really affecting all these kids as I can't tell you how many kids that we see now that are like, “Oh, I got flat feet, or I got this or I got that.” It's like, “I wonder if this is all kind of stemming from footwear that we've exposed. These kids before they can even actually use their feet with the way that they're supposed to use these feet”. So again, it's like another rabbit hole, you could drive down for sure.
[00:15:35] Nick: And it's obviously not the sole cause most likely, like with anything else? There's probably numerous factors but it is an issue. Because if you think about it, or if you look at the research of forces when we walk for example, the impact forces from the ground, when you take a step, they roughly happen on average around 50 milliseconds or less. And when you're running, it's even faster, it could be around 20 milliseconds. But the research on fast twitch muscle fibers, which are the ones that react to those stimuli in a quick manner, they usually fire at around 70 milliseconds. So that tells you that when we walk, we aren't reacting to the force of the ground. We're anticipating it. So what are shoes going to do if we put them on the kids whose bodies are learning how to anticipate these forces, and how to respond to them and react and not react, but anticipate and respond to them in an inappropriate way, we're going to skew that for them throughout their development, because now we've thrown a shoe on them. So now their body is anticipating a different force because you're putting them on cushion. And now it's anticipating more of that soft, cushiony surface, so that's going to change how their brain then reacts or responds to that. So how it dampens and absorbs the force. So we have a saying here that we use with people, hard ground equals soft foot and soft foot equals hard ground. So when you have a soft surface underneath your foot, your foot will become hard or rigid. So it stiffens up because now the ground is soft and then vice versa. So, Chad's relatives who were running barefoot, their foot had to get really soft in order to deal with the pavement. But because they're wearing shoes, the majority of the time, because that's just the social norm, their feet probably had a hard time doing that, because it's constantly in a shoe which is soft on the inside. So their foot used to being hard and rigid. But now they try to go on a hard ground and be soft, and the body doesn't have the capacity to do that, because it just isn't being trained that way anymore.
[00:17:43] Chad: That's a pretty solid point. And we put this post out like, but a year or so ago in vivo, barefoot actually got a hold of it, because we do a little bit of work with them as well. And they ran with it, and even put it in their newest shoe spirity newsletter, which was pretty sweet. So they can see that hard foot, soft ground and soft foot, hard ground is totally a thing. And when you actually look at the video, it you can even see it more clearly, because it's in slow motion and trying to watch the foot adapt to a softer surfaces is pretty amazing. Because when you think about it, it's like we're walking every day on an Eric's pad, if you're wearing that type of a shoe, , and it just makes you wonder how the body's responding to that all the way up the chain, not even at the ankle on the foot. Because a lot of our patients that have knee pain could not necessarily be becoming from the knee, because we already know that that's not a thing, that the knee is a follower, it's not a leader. So it's either going to be coming from the ankle foot or the hip, and 9 times out of 10. With a lot of our patients, we've been seeing it come from the ankle in the foot from the ground. So that's usually a place that will start and changing out the footwear even just looking at the footwear, and seeing how the foot actually reacts to the ground is a great step in determining what's actually taking place all the way up the chain. So it does make a huge difference for sure.
[00:19:03] Nick: And we're not saying that everyone needs to be going barefoot all the time. You just need to preserve the ability to go barefoot, when we have all these older adults who come in after a lifetime wearing shoes, and they come in and this happens all the time. No doctor told me I'm too old, my feet have gotten too old and I just need to wear shoes all the time. That's not how it should be, we should be able to go barefoot throughout our lifetime. And we need to preserve that ability. And the best way to preserve anything is to continue doing it. So we need to maintain the ability to go barefoot, and that's not to be said that everyone should go be running road races on the pavement barefoot. Because that's a manmade surface. Could you train your body to do so? Absolutely. Your body's crazy adaptable and resilient. You could train your body to do so if that was your goal, great. If not, we really just need to maintain, the capacity to tolerate most surfaces barefoot by being able to function barefoot day in day out if possible, and that's where footwear comes in, because it's one of those things that it plays a role it matters and the extent to which we change, it will depend on the person and to depend on the individual's unique situation. But we want to kind of move more down this natural footwear end of the spectrum with most people, so we can get there them somewhere in the middle where their feet are gonna get stronger, their balance may improve all these things, it'll have ripple effects throughout the body, but that will depend. And that's what our next episode is going to be focused on where we talk about how we transition, and some strategies on how to go about doing that. But realistically, we just our big emphasis with today's episode is we got to preserve the ability to go barefoot or at least tolerate that. And do something for your feet every day. You brush your teeth every day. No one really questions it. Could someone debate that? We don't need to brush our teeth? Absolutely. You could debate anything. But for the most part, we know that keeping relatively clean, clean teeth is a good thing. Do we need some bacteria in our mouth? Absolutely, totally different conversation. But nonetheless, everyone brush their teeth at least once a day, I would hope sometimes, but the common recommendation is twice. But we're not going to argue that. But anyway, we all just brush our teeth. Same thing with your feet, you should do something for your feet every day, brush your feet every day. Now, I'm just kidding. You could brush your feet, but you want to do something for your feet. So that could literally be a routine where you get a lacrosse ball, roll out the bottom of your foot, all directions, both feet, it could be toe yoga, where you move the toes, so he keeps outside for toes down press, let's lift up the big toe, and vice versa. It could be foot stretches and foot activation exercises, you could also stretch the calves because those muscles in the calf, some of those deeper muscles go into the feet and toes. You could roll the calves out to sew something for the feet, whatever works for you, you got to figure out what works for you, but there's a variety of options out there. And if you do have questions about specific exercises that you'd like to do, don't hesitate to reach out to us on Instagram, email, whatever. But doing something for your feet every day is a huge, huge strategy for preserving that that kind of natural foot function that we're losing out on day in and day out as we move forward in our current society.
[00:22:29] Chad: And just talking about preserving that natural foot function. We could really talk a little bit about not only the footwear, but the orthotics that are in the footwear. And I think that's a huge thing that we're trying to overcome as a profession right now. Because the profession is kind of still split some part of the profession feels that we need it and some don't. And we're not going to say that it's not necessary. But I guess my question, and this is the question that I always ask our patients and clients is like, do you want to wear orthotics for the rest of your life? Because if that's the case, then fine wear him. But if you're like, “No, I don't want to wear these things for the rest of my life”, well, then you're going to be because if you have those orthotics in your shoes, then your body's just never going to adapt without them. And that's our big drive home there. And you're never going to preserve that natural foot function if you're constantly bracing that foot in those positions. Because it's never exposed to the ground itself.
[00:23:23] Nick: Think about or phonics like you would crutches. What if you go to the doctor, and I gotta put you on these crutches? What's your first thought or question maybe even? When can I get off these crutches? How long do I have to be on the crutches? No one wants to be on the crutches. I'll see you next year when I need new ones, or when I need more cushioning, whatever the case is, you got to think of them like crutches. They're meant to offload a certain area of the foot for a short period of time while it's flared up, until I have the ability to start gradually increasing the load on that area again, so we might use them periodically, some people might get into a situation where they have them in their closet, and they might need to bring them out a couple of times a year. Some people may need to use them for a short period of time, and then never go back to them. It really depends on the person, what they do, the activities they enjoy. All those things are huge factors that matter, and footwear and orthotics they come down too. They're factors that play a role in how our body moves as well. But those are factors that are super modifiable. If all we're asking you to do is try this, try this shoe instead of the shoe, that's way easier than me telling you to, “Actually I need you to do this exercise 12 times a day, every time you do it, I need you to do three sets of 10 to 15. Whatever the case is.” It can get annoying if we get it. But if I'm telling you, “Look, I just need you to spend 100 bucks on this pair of shoes, it's going to be better for you in the long run”. It might take a little time to transition to them. But that's all you got to do. You got it by him and then put them on. That's a very, very modifiable factor that is easy to manipulate.
[00:25:06] Chad: So the hot weather is upon us. And I know that some of you are thinking yourself, Oh, but I wear flip flops all the time, there's got to be good, that zero drop my foots pretty much on the ground. Why don't we talk a little bit about flip flops, and the pros and cons of the flip flops, the way that the body has to adapt to using the flip flops in terms of how the toes are functioning, and how that might actually affect like the plantar fascia and everything else down there in the bottom of the foot?
[00:25:34] Nick: So flip flops are great from the standpoint of letting your toes spread out. But when you have a flip flop that it's called the flip flop because it's kind of flip flopping around, so it's not attached to the ankle or the heel. So when you take a step, your body has to instinctively curl the toes to grip the flip flop to keep it on. Now, preserving the ability to grip the toes is a good thing. But should we do it with every step? Probably not. Because when you take a step and you push off the toes, you want to push straight down into the ground, you don't want to grip the ground when you're walking necessarily. So what that says gonna do is that's going to kind of overwork the bottom of the foot as well as some of those deeper muscles in the calf. So it's going to create a lot of tightness and tension in the bottom of the foot and the calf. And that's going to over time that could play a role in tightness these areas, but also could lead to pain, potentially. But realistically, flip flops are probably better suited for short durations, if you're going from the car to the beach kind of thing. But if you're one of those people that just wear them every day in the summer to the store to wherever walking around, even going on walks 2, 3, 4 mile walks and flip flops, probably not the best choice, getting something that will strap ideally around that the whole foot or the heel into the ankle is like a sandal is going to be more suited for those longer distances, or those longer durations.
[00:27:06] Chad: Kind of just take that a step further. , like Nick was saying, when you have to curl the toes in order to keep the flip flop on, that changes the biomechanics of the foot completely. And like Nick said, when we're walking, we want that nice push off, and we don't get that nice push off, and we're digging our toes into the ground. So what that does is it actually changes the way that our foot and ankle load the ground. Because now what you're doing is you're creating more of a rigid foot, which is allowing you not to load as much into the foot, which then changes everything up the chain. Now you might be one of those people that's like, I feel better in flip flops and that's possible. But then there's also those people that feel worse, they could have more knee pain, more hip pains, and , all the way up the chain. But just know that it's not always a great thing, like Nick was saying, and you'll see this, , and if you've had plantar fasciitis, and if you've been treated for it in the past, you're like, but I used to do toe curls all the time and PT. But that's just not like Nick was saying, “You don't want to do that with every step”. Because that's just repetitive, that's a repetitive stress. And not only that, but it also changes the way that that foot loads and the way that the foot is supposed to function naturally.
[00:28:19] Nick: If you look down at your feet right now and you try to press, especially you're outside for toes, press them as hard into the ground as you can, if you see the middle of the toe pop up, so it's going to be more of that curling action, that's a good indication that the toes aren't functionally totally optimally for that efficient push off. So they're curling at that moment when they should be pressing into the ground. And that's going to limit not only the overall function of the foot, but that could limit performance on the field or court in any kind of any physical activity you participate in. And it really could be the role or the underlying cause of some of that tightness that could lead to discomfort, irritation, tension, all that kind of stuff.
[00:29:07] Chad: And I think that's pretty solid. Did you want to add anything else to that, Nick, before we know we conclude? Next, we want to talk about the transition. We don't want to go too far into it. I definitely want to be an hour long.
[00:29:18] Nick: So, I definitely want to leave some of that stuff for the transitioning process, but I definitely do want to say good luck because we tied the orthotics and stuff into it. Kind of the best summarization of that is where we're at in our current healthcare system the way we view feet as being weak and fragile and frail. And if someone comes with a foot issue the first thing most providers will be like, let's get you an orthotic. We got to get more cushioning shoes, get these orthopedic air quote that orthopedic shoes, that's baloney. But that's the way we kind of go without it, but realistically we need in that situation, you need to empower the person not the shoe or not the orthotic. So empower the person in their feet, let them know that their foot is strong, resilient, adaptable. In this moment, there might be some weakness present, but it has the capacity to regain strength and has the capacity to regain this function. So let's restore that, let's empower that instead of trying to give that function over to some manufactured thing that will never be as strong and resilient and adaptable as our human foot.
[00:30:32] Chad: Great summary. And I guess I'll just conclude that with just know that feet are the foundation and that's what we harp on here. And we also have another saying here that, “Go outside and get your feet dirty”, it's dirty feet or healthy feet. So go outside, go play in the dirt.
[00:30:55] PODCAST OUTRO: Thank you for joining us “In The RACK” this week. Make sure to subscribe so you don't miss out on any future episodes. You can also find us online at proformptma.com, or on social media at ProForm PTMA. And remember;
“If you train inside the rack, you better be thinking outside the rack”.
